Legislature(1995 - 1996)
04/12/1996 04:24 PM Senate RES
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
CSHB 547(RES) am MORATORIUM ON S.E. DIVE FISHERIES
CHAIRMAN LEMAN brought CSHB 547(RES) am before the committee as the
next order of business.
REPRESENTATIVE BILL WILLIAMS , Co-chair of the House Resources
Committee, explained the legislation will place a four-year
moratorium on entrance into the sea cucumber, sea urchin, geoduck
and abalone fisheries in Southeast Alaska. The increased interest
and effort in the Southeast Alaska dive fishery has caused the
number of divers to be precariously high at the end of 1995. Also,
there has been more than a keen interest in the dive fisheries by
residents and nonresidents alike.
The purpose of the moratorium is to set aside a period of time for
examination of each aspect of the Southeast Alaska dive fisheries.
The Department of Fish and Game has been gathering assessments and
management data on these fisheries. He said a moratorium on the
new entry into Southeast Alaska dive fisheries is necessary to
allow a proper review analysis of these data to ensure a continuing
viable fishery.
Representative Williams said the Southeast Alaska sea urchin
fishery cannot be open due to a lack of research and management.
A large number of new divers interested in this fishery would be
difficult to management and may threaten the sustained yield of the
sea urchin resource. The moratorium will provide all interested
parties the opportunity to develop a long-term management and
research plan for this developing fishery.
Representative Williams stated these valuable fishery resources
need special attention, and HB 547 will provide the mechanism for
the development of a sustainable fisheries which will provide
economic opportunities for the participants, the southeast
communities and the state. He urged the committee's support of the
legislation.
Number 101
FRANK HOMAN , Commercial Fisheries Entry Commission, Department of
Fish & Game, credited Representative Williams, Senator Taylor and
Representative Mackie for getting the divers in Southeast Alaska
together on this issue. He said it was one of the first times in
the Commission's history where a majority of the divers were in
agreement on a bill and came to the legislature and the commission
for some assistance.
Mr. Homan said the need for action this year is try to cap the
effort in these dive fisheries, and because of the complex system
that the Limited Entry Commission has as subject to moratoriums,
they couldn't implement a moratorium within the time frame that's
needed. In fact, the commission cannot implement a moratorium on
their own initiative; it has to come from the commissioner of fish
and game, through the Board of Fisheries, to the commission.
Mr. Homan expressed the commission's pleasure at the cohesion
amongst the divers and their taking the initiative to come to the
Legislature for its assistance.
Number 118
CHAIRMAN LEMAN stated the committee would take testimony from
individuals waiting to testify on HB 547 at various sites on the
Legislative Teleconference Network.
JIM DENNIS , testifying from Craig, stated that he and 15 other
people in attendance in Craig support the bill and the amendment
that was added to it on the House floor.
ANDY KITTAMS , testifying from Petersburg and representing the
Petersburg Chapter of the Southeast Alaska Harvest Dive
Association, stated their support of CSHB 547(RES) am. They
believe it is a good thing for the dive fisheries, as well as the
fishermen. There has been a substantial increase in the fisheries
in the last few years, and this appears to be the only to way cap
the level so that the people currently in the fishery have the
chance of making some money.
LAUREN ROGERS , a Wrangell diver testifying from Petersburg, voiced
his support for CSHB 547(RES) am. Although he hates to see limited
entry in the fishery, he sees no other choice. He said if
something isn't done, the situation is only going to get worse. Of
the 533 people that are going to be in this moratorium, 501 are sea
cucumber divers. He noted Department of Fish and Game statistics
show the average weight of a sea cucumber is decreasing, and the
quota for each area that rotates through on a three-year basis is
declining. So even if it stays at this number of people, there
will continue to be a decline in the economics of this fishery, the
department will probably have to come up with a more conservative
scheme.
MATT DONOHOE , testifying from Sitka, said he has been fishing in
that area for the past 20 years, although he does not participate
in the dive fishery. He stated he is opposed to language in the
bill which preempts an entry into the sea urchin fishery. He said
it is a fishery that doesn't exist in any numbers, and to put a
limited entry program on a fishery that isn't there yet is setting
a dangerous precedent in the state.
Number 269
LARRY TRANI , President of the Sitka Chapter of the Alaska Harvest
Divers Association testifying from Sitka, stated CSHB 547(RES) am
is a compromise bill. The original version of the legislation was
accepted by all the divers in Southeast Alaska, as was the language
in the current version. He said any further modification to the
bill will seriously jeopardize the near unanimous support it now
has, and he urged it be passed in its current version. He has
watched the dive industry grow since 1970, and it is now to the
point where few people can make any meaningful amount of money and
the number of participants has the potential of threatening the
stocks. He added that the dive industry has done everything it can
to slow the fisheries down, as is apparent by the self-imposed
regulations they are now diving under.
JAMES LECRONE of Sitka stated his support for CSHB 547(RES) am and
urged its passage. He also stated this is a moratorium, not a
limited entry program. It will allow the state a period of time to
examine the fishery without new entries.
JANUSE KUNAT of Sitka voiced his agreement with Mr. Trani's
testimony. He added that the bill is for Alaskan divers to protect
the resources. He urged of HB 547 in its current form.
[TESTIMONY BY RAYMOND CAMPBELL HAS BEEN TRANSCRIBED VERBATIM]
RAYMOND CAMPBELL : My name is Raymond Campbell. I've been an
Alaskan resident for 19 years, and I've been a harvest diver for
eight years. I oppose Bill 547; the way it stands it right now
there's a lot of problems with it. Excuse the pun, but it smells
fishy.
I've been diving urchins for three years. I've participated in the
test fishery down in Metlakatla, and I'm going to be excluded from
diving in the moratorium so a group of guys who have never touched
an urchin before are going to be allowed to fish in the moratorium.
You know, its put me out in the cold, and I see no reason for it.
My permit says "statewide" on it. I've fished all over the state,
and the way this thing is written, I'm out in the cold.
I've come down here and I've bought a boat specifically to be a
diver in southeast, and there's just some real problems with it.
I'm getting cut out so that a bunch of people can get in with this
amendment that they put to the bill. With this participating five
consecutive years, there is going to be people participating in the
abalone, or there are going to be people allowed to participate in
the abalone fishery that have never done so in the past, in the
geoduck fishy that have never done so in the past, and in the
urchin fishery that have never done so in the past. And people
like me who have got landings in abalone, cucumbers and the dive
urchins and have pioneered the fishery are going to be out.
I thinks it's a pretty all for one group of fishermen kind of bill,
and like I said, I oppose it. With the way it stands now, I oppose
it. Now, I do understand there are problems, but it seems like
there's been a lot of people that are managing these fisheries that
have been dragging their feet on the way they've been managing it,
and I think there's other ways of managing it.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN : Where have you been diving?
RAYMOND CAMPBELL : I've dived in Kodiak, and in the late eighties
I started diving urchins in Kodiak. I've dived in Southeast in the
early nineties for cucumbers. I've dived in Southeast in '95 for
dungeness. I've dived in this urchin fishery, in the test fishery
down in Metlakatla. I've even dived in Florida for sponges, but I
am an Alaskan resident for the last 20 years. Like I say, I'm out
in the cold, and I feel like I've pioneered this urchin fishery,
and to have me out in the cold so a group of guys who have never
touched an urchin can have it to themselves for four years is
rotten.
I also don't like the way this has gone through. It got proposed
on the 25th of March and it went through the House lickety split.
Like I said, I can understand the problems with this fishery and I
can understand that a lot of people want to do something with it,
but the way this bill is now, there's too many problems with it.
What they're doing -- by doing it only with Southeast, they're
going to take all the problems that they have in Southeast and
they're going to move them north and west, and the problems that
they have down here are just going to move to Kodiak and Cook Inlet
and the small dive fisheries they have up there. So like I said,
I'm against this bill.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN : I think this question is probably better directed
to Representative Williams. Is it true that, as Mr. Campbell is
saying, that if you--and it looks like on top of page three--if you
have commercially harvested sea cucumber, abalone, geoduck or sea
urchin, any of those, then you qualify for the permit in all of
them? Is that correct?
REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS : That's the way it was read, yeah. During
the five-year calendars of '91...
REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE : That particular section means that if you
have participated in each of the years, which means in five
consecutive years, and that was the question that I was going to
ask the witness. He stated that he has been fishing the last eight
years, and the way this bill is that if you fished either in the
sea cucumber, abalone, geoduck or urchin fishery in the last five
years, then you would qualify under the bill.
RAYMOND CAMPBELL : In Southeast. Some of my deliveries have been
in Kodiak and the Kodiak cucumber fishery. The years that I fished
Southeast were '91 and '92. Then in '93 I fished crab most of the
year, and the only harvest diving I did in '93 was in Florida for
sponges for a short trip down there. So although I did participate
in harvest diving in the year '93, I didn't harvest dive in the
state of Alaska because I was crab fishing. I fished king crab and
salmon and barradie crab and opies. I'd also like to say that
commercial fishing has been 90 percent of my income. I've been
doing it for 19 years except for about a six-month stint in the mid
eighties that I worked on a tug boat, but commercial fishing is my
livelihood and I've been getting cut out on these moratoriums and
limited entry permits ever since I've been fishing. I did get a
big 150 pound halibut IFQ, although in the 80's sometimes the
halibut fishing was the majority of my income, now I'm allowed to
go catch a 150 pound halibut. That halibut IFQ program was a shaft
for the Alaskans, the same with other things. I've started out
getting cut out of a hand troll permit down here in Southeast; I've
gotten cut out of numerous fisheries, and I'm a full-time
fisherman.
The other thing I see is I see people fishing not to catch fish,
but to get permits, and I thinks that's one of the reasons you've
got so many divers down here. People are saying, "Well, it's not
economically feasible to dive, but if I don't dive, I'll miss a
year and I'll get cut out of a permit." When they changed the laws
in southeast, changed the seasons from three days to one day, I
decided to fish in Kodiak, and now it turns out I should have come
down here and hit a resource that was already hurting, simply not
because I needed to make a living, simply because for the permit
and for the right to be able to fish on it in this moratorium.
Like I said, I understand the problems, but I think this bill
stinks. It smells like rotten fish.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN : How many other divers from other areas of Alaska
who have harvested in all five of those years do you think would be
similarly situated to you.
RAYMOND CAMPBELL : I don't have those particular numbers with me,
but I do know there are people in the room that...
CHAIRMAN LEMAN : Mr. Homan, do you have any idea?
FRANK HOMAN : I don't have the answer, but we have the data to get
the answer.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN : Okay, I'd like to see that, you know, if there are
some who maybe went somewhere else in Alaska because of the
resource and would get cut out, but who have a consistent pattern
of harvest. It may be worth looking at. Is that something you
discussed, Representative Williams in the other committee?
REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS : Yes, we've been trying to work with the
fishermen on this bill. I do sympathize with the witness right
now, and I think we were trying to work something out for people
like him on this, and hopefully we'll get it taken care of by the
time it gets to the next committee.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN : Maybe we can take care of it in this committee.
It's probably where we want to do the work on this.
RAYMOND CAMPBELL : The other point I'd like to make is there are
some divers that participated in the past fishery that are going to
be cut out, and I feel those guys are the guys that were pioneering
this urchin fishery. I'm participating in the test fishery and we
had to sign a release that said participating in the test fishery
will exclude us from -- well, not being any criteria for being
included in any moratorium or limited entry scheme. I signed that
when it was time to go fishing. I didn't even have any
understanding that that was part of the deal when I came down, and
I really wonder about the wisdom of cutting people out who pioneer
a fishery from the fishery, in one that doesn't even exist.
[END OF VERBATIM TESTIMONY]
Number 425
PAT CASSIN , a licensed sea urchin diver testifying from Ketchikan,
said under the current version of HB 547, he will qualify to dive
for sea urchins because of participation in the Sitka fisheries.
Also, under HB 547, participants in three other fisheries will
qualify to dive for sea urchins. He questioned if it was the
intent of the Legislature that through this bill the participants
who qualify under the three separate fisheries be given a higher
priority classification for entry permits than those who have
actually fished for sea urchins.
TIM FOLEY , testifying from Ketchikan, stated he has a statewide
Alaska sea urchin permit. He is currently in the test fishery, and
he pointed out that he and others put all of their time and effort
in that test fishery, not participating much in the other dive
fisheries in Southeast Alaska, and through this legislation they
are not being recognized as doing so.
JEFF MARTIN , a diver in the test fishery testifying from Ketchikan,
stated he dives for sea urchins professionally for a living. He
believes that he has done a lot in this test fishery to make it
happen, and he wants the chance to be a part of the moratorium and
be licensed for the fishery. He said CSHB 547(RES) am is leaving
him out because he did not fish the other fisheries. He estimated
there are approximately 15 divers in the test fishery who will not
qualify under the language in the bill. He requested that the bill
be rewritten so that the people who have made this sea urchin
fishery happen have a chance to stay here and make a living at it.
CLAY BEZENEK , testifying from Ketchikan, stated he supports CSHB
547(RES) am. He said it is a fairly complex issue, but it
basically all comes down to dollars and cents. The participation
level for all the fisheries has reached a saturation level and the
legislation was well written to deal with this situation. He
supports the bill, as written, and he believes the other problems
can be dealt with by the Limited Entry Commission at a later date.
Number 483
SCOTT THOMAS , representing the Southeast Alaska Harvest Divers
Association and testifying from Ketchikan, stated the organization
took a vote and approximately 90 percent of its membership supports
CSHB 547(RES) am. He said commercial fishing is his sole source of
income, and for the past 10 years he has been the owner/operator of
a southeast seine operation and has fished in numerous fisheries,
including the dive harvest of sea cucumbers and geoducks. In the
three years he has been involved in the dive fishery, he has seen
the participation increase dramatically, and the past year's
participation has reached a level to where these fisheries are no
longer feasible. Passage of the legislation will enable the
effective management of the fishery, and it will provide the
opportunity to the fishermen who have already made commitments to
the industry.
DUANE KING , testifying from Ketchikan, said he basically supports
the legislation although he sees a problem with it. Many of the
persons who would qualify for a sea urchin permit under the bill
have never participated in a sea urchin fishery in Southeast
Alaska. If everyone who ends up with one of the other dive permits
also receives a sea urchin license, the number of participants will
be unmanageable. He believes many of these persons will only
pursue the sea urchin license just to sell out as soon as they can
to the highest bidder. He suggested a fair and manageable fix
would be to give Limited Entry Commission the option of using
participation in the sea urchin fishery during the moratorium.
ERIC HAMILTON , testifying from Ketchikan, stated he built his boat
specifically for the dive fisheries and focused on sea urchin. He
is presently diving in the sea urchin test fishery, and he believes
sea urchin divers should be recognized for the contribution to
starting a fishery. He noted that under the current language of
the bill, a minimal landing of cucumbers, geoducks or abalone
entitles the purchase of a sea urchin permit, thus, even a two-
pound landing of cucumbers or geoducks, entitles the diver to a sea
urchin permit, but it offers no recognition of the thousands of
dive hours during the sea urchin test fishery.
Number 553
ERIC WOELFEL , a life-long Alaskan fisherman testifying from
Ketchikan, stated he participates exclusively in dive fisheries,
and he has fished in Southeast Alaska, Cook Inlet and Kodiak for
cucumbers. He, too, is currently participating in the sea urchin
test fishery. He has not always worked in southeast; because of
the limited number of days he often found it more financially
lucrative to participate in the fisheries up north. He would like
to see those landings count towards qualifying for a southeast
permit. He also supports the participation in the test fishery as
qualifying individuals for the urchin moratorium.
MS. BOBBIE IVANOFF , testifying from Kodiak, voiced her objection to
the current version of HB 547 because she thinks it is only
beneficial to an exclusive group of divers. If there is a
moratorium, it should include all of the Alaska divers. She
questioned how a moratorium can be put on a fishery that really
isn't existing yet.
Number 576
NORM DEGNER , testifying from Wrangell, said he can see the point of
the Ketchikan divers who have been diving for sea urchin, but Ocean
Fresh had the right to pick who they wanted. He noted there are
several divers in Wrangell, including himself, that ran up large
phone bills calling Ocean Fresh to try to be part of the test
fishery. If that was counted for qualification into the
moratorium, then there would be a lot of divers who were left out,
not because they didn't want to dive, but because there just wasn't
a place for them. He said the members of the divers association in
Wrangell would like to see HB 547 passed in its current form.
ED GRAY , testifying from Sitka, voiced his support for CSHB
547(RES) am. He has been a diver in that area for six years, and
he got into the other fisheries because of the decreasing in dive
time. He recognizes the need for a moratorium for a more
controlled situation. He also noted that he and several other
divers made an effort to be part of the test fishery, but they were
excluded from that contract. He said those people involved in that
program were aware that it was a private contract and it would not
qualify them in the future for a moratorium.
TAPE 92-52, SIDE B
Number 001
STEVE LACROIX , a member of the Board of Directors for the Southeast
Alaska Dive Harvest Association testifying in Juneau, stated the
organization has over 50 active harvest divers, as well as many
associate members from the Ketchikan business community who are
helping promote the dive industry for their community. A poll was
taken of the membership on their support for CSHB 547(RES) am and
they had almost unanimous support for it. He said the few divers
who have expressed opposition to the bill are primarily not
Alaskans who have come here and participated in a test urchin
fishery and have taken opportunities away from Alaskans. He said
this bill will stop them and will stop hundreds of other people
like them from taking these opportunities away from Alaskans. He
noted the new participation in these fisheries comes primarily from
non fishermen, out-of-state professionals, permit hunters, and, in
this case, sport divers, which is bad for the industry. He said
this bill doesn't just help a few fishermen get permits; it creates
a platform for the development of a $25 million a year potential
industry in Southeast Alaska that these communities need.
Number 075
LARRY COTTER , testified in Juneau on behalf of Ocean Fresh
Seafoods, which is the company that has been conducting the test
fishery for urchins in Southeast Alaska out of Metlakatla. He said
there is no question that a moratorium is appropriate and necessary
in the geoduck, sea cumber and abalone fisheries. One might raise
the question of whether or not a moratorium is necessary in
urchins, and, Ocean Fresh Seafoods, at first, questioned whether
there might be better ways to address the furor or over
participation in that fishery as it develops during the next few
years. However, Ocean Fresh Seafoods is willing to go forth and
support the moratorium in the urchin fisheries and to move forward
and start trying to focus on an appropriate way to manage these
fisheries so that they be operated on a year-round basis so that
the true social and economic benefits can be returned to all
Alaskans. He said this has been the goal of Ocean Fresh Seafoods
from the beginning.
Mr. Cotter said that after listening to the testimony, he believes
the bill should take into account those participants in the test
fishery who otherwise do not qualify. There are about 15 of those
individuals who do not qualify for a moratorium permit, and about
half of those individuals are Alaskan residents. The total number
of people that would receive a license under HB 547 is in excess of
500, so he fails to see how 15 people, seven or eight of them who
are Alaskans, will have any meaningful adverse impact upon this
industry or the other Alaskans and non Alaskans who are going to be
participating.
Mr. Cotter said the test fishery was the result of three years of
effort by Ocean Fresh Seafoods to try and convince the state to
begin to open a commercial sea urchin fishery in Southeast Alaska.
Finally the Alaska Department of Fish & Game went out to public bid
to seek a company that was willing to pay the state's cost up front
in exchange for the right to harvest urchins so that the state
could assess the resource and determine the life history perimeters
and other things necessary to allow a commercial fishery to occur.
The company has established for the very first time that a sea
urchin fishery in Southeast Alaska can be economically viable.
Number 125
REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS asked if the 15 individuals in the test
fishery have participated in any other dive fishery in the state.
LARRY COTTER responded that he knows one of them has, but he is not
sure about the rest of them. He added that the company encouraged
those divers not to participate in the other dive fisheries because
they felt they shouldn't be doing that as long as they were
participating in the test fishery. REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS related
that he has information that of those individuals who participated
in the test fishery, 16 were non residents and two were residents.
CHAIRMAN LEMAN commented that what the bill is trying to do is show
a history of participation over several years, and there may be
other individuals like Mr. Campbell who have had a long history of
participation.
Number 200
REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE said he, too, was concerned about Mr.
Campbell's testimony because he has been an Alaskan and he has
participated in some of the fisheries, and he thinks that needs to
be looked at. However, that also opens up the question of what
the numbers would be if other people who have participated in other
parts of the state are allowed into the fishery. This dive fishery
is continuing to expand and, unless the state stops it at 500 at
this point in time, next year there could be 800 people involved.
The question is whether or not the resource can withstand that sort
of assault by more divers coming, whether they are from out of
state or they are residents of the state.
LARRY COTTER emphasized that Ocean Fresh Seafoods supports the
moratorium, whether or not the divers from the test fishery are
included.
There being no further witnesses to testify on CSHB 547(RES) am,
CHAIRMAN LEMAN closed the public hearing, and stated the bill would
be set aside for further work to see if some of the concerns can be
resolved.
CSHB 547(RES) am MORATORIUM ON S.E. DIVE FISHERIES
CHAIRMAN LEMAN brought CSHB 547(RES) am back before the committee.
He noted that Michael Byrer, Caley McCay and Andy Kittams of
Petersburg were standing by on the teleconference network waiting
to testify on the bill. He then asked the three gentlemen if they
were in favor of the legislation, because it was his intent to move
the bill as soon as a quorum was established. It was acknowledged
that the three men are in support of CSHB 547(RES) am.
CSHB 546(RES) am was set aside until a quorum of the committee
could be established.
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